By: Justin Powers

mattlaswell 2 weeks, 1 day ago on Twitter

Good article from @artofmanliness about, of all things, manliness. A worthwhile read. http://bit.ly/4BYg9N

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0d30 2 weeks, 1 day ago on Twitter

Reminders about *real* manliness: http://bit.ly/8BQmxg

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SheilaGregoire 2 weeks, 1 day ago on Twitter

GREAT post on what modern "manliness" means: have we thrown out the baby with the bathwater? http://bit.ly/1mi5Hl

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Justin Powers 2 months, 3 weeks ago on Wordpress

Jeem,

I agree with your well thought out and articulated points. I would posit that society would be better off, and that men in general would show more respect to women if contraception was not an option. I also agree that contraception has contributed in a large way to the decline of marriage in our society.

In terms of full disclosure, I have been married for one and a half years , and my wife is currently on the pill. Although she has her fears about the ability to support a child (I don’t, I share the same outlook as you re: the fact that it is the character of the man, not the savings account that is required), the main reason is that she is finishing college, and it becomes tremendously difficult to finish school in the last months of pregnancy. We have not used contraceptives as an excuse to be promiscuous, as a matter of fact my wife is the only woman that I have been sexually intimate with, and then only after we were married (talk about the last of a dying breed). However, I would say that it is more of a convenience for us, and that if contraceptives were not an option, I wouldn’t miss it.

I sometimes wish for a society where people treated sex with more respect, however I fear that our society is sliding into a general acceptance of sex as recreation, and has passed the point of no return. ... See all content Hide content

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Jeem 2 months, 3 weeks ago on Wordpress

Nik,

I appreciate your thoughts and consideration of the issue. With such a controversial topic many folks just balk and resort to name-calling. I’ll try to respond according to the objections as I understand them.

1) It seems Abraham Lincoln had it right when he said that “freedom is not being able to do whatever you want, but having the ability to do what you ought.” The understanding of “freedom” as the absence of barriers to my acting according to whatever I feel like is problematic. Look where this is getting us today. Now some do rightly act out of fear: we call that obedience to civil law. You don’t speed because you fear getting a ticket. However, with the sexual act, it is not simply a matter of “acting correctly” because you fear getting pregnant. It calls one to respect the intrinsic dignity of the sexual act. I’m not so naive to think that people have not been engaging in extra-marital behavior since the institution of marriage first existed. However, this is the first time in history that promiscuity has been endorsed. We’re just not ready to realize the implications of that (ref. my earlier post) It becomes a sort of addiction. It is an unfortunate small number of people that can actually practice abstinence. It is difficult, mainly because the popular understanding of sex is that it is all about pleasure. From here, sex, rather the pleasure that comes with sex, becomes controlling like alcohol or tobacco, in the sense that one looses self-control and is not completely free to make the correct decisions or to act rightly.

2) Pregnancy is not the real issue. By saying a pregnancy disadvantages the woman, it puts bearing children on par with a physical handicap. I don’t think you are saying that. There really are two issues here, one being sex outside of a stable, permanent commitment (ie. marriage), the other being the use of contraception as a general practice. To address the first, if one lives their whole life with the attitude that its ok to have sex with people they are not married to, does that attitude magically change (especially subconsciously) when they finally do get married? I submit no, it does not. The other issue of contraception needs a good hard look. A lot of ink has been spilled on this, but I will summarize by saying that the two distinct goals of sex are 1) union of the spouses and 2) procreation (at least openness to the possibility). If a sexual act misses one of these, it is trivialized. At the risk of being vulgar, if one uses contraception, the couple is merely exchanging orgasms. It is just about pleasure. If you take away the openness to procreation and the natural union formed between man and woman in the act (like pieces of a puzzle, they were made for each other) by usage of a condom, what is the essential difference from this act and a homosexual relationship, or worse, bestiality? (I’m gonna get lots of letters on this…)

2) Having a child is often deemed a punishment when someone “isn’t planning on it.” Any mentally stable individual who was born from a woman would suggest otherwise (because mentally stable people don’t like being seen as “punishments.”) I am not denying that historically, pregnant, unmarried women have born the hardship. The issue here is more that when these minority cases happen, it should rather behoove the family and friends of the young woman to support her as best they can in this difficult situation, and not just say “oh, you should have been on the pill.” It is not just the so-called conservative society, but the individualistic society, that endorses the 1st definition of freedom listed above, one that sees having a child as putting a damper on my “freedom.” It takes a lot of maturity to see that marriage is not “game over” and that kids are not chains that tie you down. Our culture has Peter Pan-Syndrome; it just doesn’t want to grow up. That is why there are men who leave a women they have gotten pregnant, because they are not men, they are scared boys who can’t take responsibility for the lives they have changed. Because they did not respect the sexual act and the gift of life that comes from it. For these guys, it is all about pleasure.

3) Nik, brother, you are never going to be “ready” to have kids. It takes being a man more than having all the money you think you should have to raise a family. Kids don’t want money, they want you, your attention and your love. My parents were broke when I was a kid. (I’m 24,it wasn’t that long ago.) They worked hard so we could have what we needed and so they could spend time with us kids. (They worked to live, and didn’t live to work.) No one who ever knew them would dare call them irresponsible. Readiness is more a matter of having the character to be willing to sacrifice personal preferences for your family. That isn’t all you need, but it is a good start.

I hope that my approach does not come off as “condemning,” which is ironically the greatest condemnation thrown at people who take argue for these principles. When you hold the person to a higher standard, it is not condemning, but compassionate. You know the good everyone is capable of, and that is where you set the standard. If there are principles and morals surrounding the sexual act and how it effects the human person, and I believe there are, we are doing a disservice to our society if we try to fit the rules to what is actually a flaw an call “normal” something that ought to be the “exception.” If morals and values come from the family (they certainly don’t come from the government or the culture), and we have little by little undermined what it means to be a family, why are we stupefied at the outcome? ... See all content Hide content

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Nik 2 months, 3 weeks ago on Wordpress

In closing, homosexuals and heterosexuals all need to spend more time together, until we all just feel comfortable. If one of my close friends were openly gay, I imagine the rest of that group of friends would feel much more certain in the knowledge that we were all just friends and weren’t worrying about being judged or judging each other.

It’s just silly that the subject is so divisive and such taboo. We are all too afraid of each other, and we need to let it go. Let’s man up. ... See all content Hide content

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Sal 2 months, 3 weeks ago on Wordpress

Great post and very true. As far as appearance and dressing goes, you are judged by your outward appearance before you ever even open your mouth. It’s probably some atavistic gene that helped us survive, but that’s the way it is, and that’s the way it will likely always be. First impressions are so powerful, and difficult to change once they are set. I believe I read somewhere you have 3 minutes and someone has made their mind up on you. If that is indeed true (and it probably is), then your appearance and dress is critical. ... See all content Hide content

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NoisyHeathen 2 months, 4 weeks ago on Wordpress

This is an excellent article, as so many others have said.

I totally agree with the commenter who said the “manly virtues” should be permanently on the front page and, furthermore, I’d really like to see articles on each of the virtues that don’t yet have them.

Keep up the great work!

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ladybugblue 2 months, 4 weeks ago on Twitter

manliness - babies - bathwater. I don't think I was supposed to read this but I liked it http://bit.ly/rvSRc

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The Sheila 3 months ago on Wordpress

Thanks for a great post. And while this site is the Art of Manliness, I wonder if a few of these things would not also apply to women. As equal as we have become in the last several decades (free love not withstanding) certainly a few of these standards and virtues would be admirable for women to aspire to.

This site holds a lot of useful information for me, being a woman, and I would hope I’m not alone in thinking so. ... See all content Hide content

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Jessie 3 months ago on Friendfeed

Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater | The Art of Manliness - http://artofmanliness.com/2009...

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Tom Harbold 3 months ago on Wordpress

An excellent article even among the many excellent articles appearing on this site! “Creme de la creme” comes to mind… Regarding dress and grooming, it’s true that one should not “put on airs.” But neither should one be so fearful of this that one fails to, as my late and dearly beloved mother used to put it, “put your best foot forward.” It can be a balancing act at times, but unless one is at a deer camp or a football game (and perhaps even there), it’s hard to go wrong by erring on the side of a little more class.

I do agree with those who have stated that the normalization (or at least mainstreaming) of homosexuality has made open expression of affection between straight men more challenging. That is not to make a moral judgement on same-sex relationships, just a statement of fact: for better or worse, physical affection between persons of the same sex is generally assumed, these days, to be reflective of one’s sexual orientation. Such generalizations may be grossly unfair, but like many others of life’s unfairnesses, that does not make them any less the case.

And to Sir Lancelot: when capitalized, Pagan generally refers to those persons who follow one of a rather broad and diverse complex of Earth/Nature-centered spiritual paths… or, if you prefer, “dirt-worshipping tree-huggers.” Worship of the Christian Devil does not enter into the equation in any way; most Pagans of my acquaintance would express doubt that such an entity even exists.

Best regards,

Tom ... See all content Hide content

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Da_Cheeze 3 months ago on Wordpress

“were you not able to avoid using the word “fag”? I mean it doesn’t offend me personally, but it IS a really offensive slur to some people. You wouldn’t put “spic” or another slur in an article, would you? I’m sorry, but I think that was real tactless.”

Mikael…

I think you miss the point… IMO, there are homosexual men, there are heterosexual men, and there are “fags” … men who have let fear and self-esteem issues control what they are and what they do. “Fags” also includes heterosexual males who beat their wives and girlfriends because they insecure about their own masculinity. “Fags” also includes heterosexual males who bash gay men because their upset about their own sexuality (or lack thereof)… calling someone a “fag” isn’t necessarily calling someone gay. It can work both ways.

Can we throw “political correctness” in as bathwater? ... See all content Hide content

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danplubell 3 months ago on Twitter

Art of Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater http://bit.ly/1mi5Hl

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Delshon 3 months ago on Wordpress

This is good. I really enjoy dating mature successful women. It keeps me on my toes. I once had a conversation with a guy that said he wants his wife to make less money than him, have less of an education than him…….

I can’t see any benefit in that I always go after women that have achieved just as much as I have or more.

As men the way we look is essential; I worked with two guys a few years back I continued to advance in the company while the two of them stayed in the same position. Down the road both men were fired while I continued to advance in the company. All three of us worked hard & had the same level of education. The difference was I wore well tailor suits, shinned shoes and pressed shirts too work everyday while they would come to work with wrinkled clothes.

This is just one example of why its important to take your physical appearance serious. ... See all content Hide content

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Sir Lancelot 3 months ago on Wordpress

“I also believe that her cultural beliefs downplay the role of men and that so many of her Pagan male friends are hiding in the corners with their tails between their legs.”

You mean “pagan” as in not Christian or as in hugging trees/worshipping the devil?

I’m beginning to realize I live a really sheltered life.

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Megan 3 months ago on Wordpress

I totally agree with those who say the acceptance of and mainstreaming of homosexuality harms male friendships. In cultures that don’t accept homosexuality, men are free to be affectionate with each other w/o fear of suspicion from others. My friend studied in Africa and observed many male friends actually holding hands. She was the only one who thought they were all gay because she was the only Westerner. A man would never do that if the other guy thought it might be a sexual come-on.

Though it is very Catholic and may thus be hard to relate to, I highly recommend the book “The Privilege of Being a Woman” by philosophy superstar Alice von Hildebrandt. Fantastic perspective on the confusion of the past 40 yrs. Very short, easy read. Very insightful on the interaction between the sexes. ... See all content Hide content

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Louis 3 months ago on Wordpress

I watch mad men and these same issues come to mind. There are some great aspects of manliness left in the past, namely social formality, dress, manner of speech,and work ethic. And at the same time there are aspects which are old fashioned-treatment of blacks, the role of women, spending little time with your childre, the multitude of affairs. One day we as a society will get it right

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Bones Bennet 3 months ago on Wordpress

Profound post at the right time!

I have just been updating my blog on the experiences of being immersed in the Goddess Worship culture of my wife, who is Pagan.

I love and respect my wife very much. I also believe that her cultural beliefs downplay the role of men and that so many of her Pagan male friends are hiding in the corners with their tails between their legs. Men need to be proud of what we are and capable of at the same time honoring women.

Cheers! ... See all content Hide content

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jacobmlee 3 months ago on Twitter

http://bit.ly/1cX5hU Reading: Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater @artofmanliness

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arielclark 3 months ago on Twitter

Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater http://is.gd/4QSW5 Interesting article.

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modelmums 3 months ago on Twitter

New Baby: Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater | The Art of Manliness http://tinyurl.com/ybq83cn

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lfabert 3 months ago on Twitter

Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater | The Art of Manliness: These days a man should still be a provider, but .. http://tinyurl.com/ybq83cn

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colinismyname 3 months ago on Twitter

Reading: Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater http://bit.ly/2m4s3w

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donaldturnbull 3 months ago on Twitter

Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater http://bit.ly/1Qqfvl

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Tweets that mention Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater | The Art of Manliness -- Topsy.com 3 months ago on Wordpress

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by RitualMensGroom and Shane Combs, Abraham Hernandez. Abraham Hernandez said: http://bit.ly/1cX5hU Reading: Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater [...]

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Brett McKay 3 months ago on Wordpress

@Dave-

Most men aren’t afraid of being called gay anymore. We’ve made progress in that area and that’s why “homophobia” is in the “bathwater” section. Although I do think it’s undeniable that some men still are. A lot of men think that being affectionate with their friends is a womanly thing to do.

Men of the 19th century walked arm in arm, held hands when taking pictures, shared beds to save money, and wrote each letters about how much love they had for each other. But do you know straight men who would walk down the street arm in arm or take a portrait sitting on each other’s laps? ... See all content Hide content

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Dave Petty 3 months ago on Wordpress

Very nice post. The dressing and grooming section really makes a good point. I think your average guy doesn’t want to over dress, or to use an old fashioned phrase “put on airs”. There seems to be a problem now of dressing appropriately; sometimes jeans and a t-shirt are just fine, sometimes not so much. Part of being a man, particularly a well rounded man is knowing the difference . As far as showing affection to a male friend is concerned; are we really still in the worried about being called gay or whatever? I mean come on. If the people you hang out are so inclined then maybe it’s time to start upgrading your friends. ... See all content Hide content

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artofmanliness 3 months ago on Twitter

Manliness: The Baby and the Bathwater http://artofmanliness.com/xSXQ

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