What the world needs is more freethinking kids like ten-year-old Will Phillips

valdemar. Many thanks for the source of the patriotism quote.

The USA is indeed awash with bigotry and religious enforcement. I recall some USA friends staying with us and they and their children, early teenage, where they could be described as freethinking, pugnacious debating atheists. In fact, I often played the devil’s advocate defending christianity just to enjoy the discussion and they really knew their stuff. Back in the USA I heard much later from a relative who visited them that they attended church and the father parked the cars for the congregation. The explanation: you either get on board or your kids will be ostracised, bullied, not able to play on the local basketball teams etc. ... See all content Hide content

3 months, 3 weeks ago by Broga on Wordpress

I have no problem believing that a child can come to the conclusion that gay folk are no different to the rest of us. I realise that it may have looked like that is what I was saying, because I am a terrible writer, but it’s not.

What I’m saying is that I find it hard to believe that the kid has a strong enough conviction to stand up in front of his class and ostracise himself by making a big deal out of it. It’s one thing to support gay rights, it’s quite another to notice that the country as a whole doesn’t support gay rights and that therefore the pledge of alleigence is hypocritical, and thus refusing to recite it and openly challenging the teacher on it, at 10 years old. It just seems like too abstract a concept for a 10 year old to grasp and act on without some kind of nudging from an authority figure.

If the teacher had been saying something like “do you think the USA grants equal rights to all of it’s citizens” or something similar, a direct line of reasoning to the child’s ideals, then I wouldn’t have a problem accepting it. At the very least I’d claim that the kid and his parents had a conversation about it the night before, whether it was instigated by the child or not.

Then again maybe I’m just incredibly out of touch with the way children work. The only regular contact I have with a kid younger than 18 is my 10 year old cousin who is more interested in his nintendo DS than anything else, so I’m probably heavily biased.

Barry:

Back in primary school we had to sing songs at every assembly and at some point I decided to stop singing certain lines that referenced race (there was one song that had the line “the ink is black / the page is white / together we learn to read and write / to read and write”) because my mind at the time registered it as racist (I still do now, kinda, but for a different reason.) Luckily I’m too young to have been caned (I’m 21.) Just thought I’d throw that out there. ... See all content Hide content

3 months, 3 weeks ago by Me on Wordpress

“10 year olds simply don’t come up with stuff like this by themselves, that’s why they’re called children instead of short-adults.”

Hmm, haven’t watched much childrens TV in a while then?

My kid’s eight and more than capable of arguing back to teachers against injustice to her fellow pupils at school, as teachers have mentioned several times on parents nights .

Wish I could say she got it all from me and the Mrs telling her to keep asking questions of adults when they don’t make sense, and not to believe them until they do, but I’d have to be honest and say it’s at least as likely she gets it from The Simpsons – or any number of newer kids cartoons whose dialogue quality never ceases to amaze. (Ssshhh – don’t tell the fundies, they’ll think it’s an atheist plot!) ... See all content Hide content

3 months, 3 weeks ago by Stuart H. on Wordpress

Broga, Dr Johnson said patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Voltaire would probably have substituted ‘religion’.

Me, if his parents say: ‘Gay people are fine, they’re like anyone else, homophobia is bad’, you can class that as indoctrination if you want. But what if they said these things in response to Will asking them: ‘Mom, Dad, are gay people evil perverts who are ruining America, like Pastor X or Senator Y says?’ The USA is awash with bigotry on this subject and it’s hard to imagine any bright kid not being aware of the state of play.

Be realistic. How would you respond to that sort of question from a child? ... See all content Hide content

3 months, 3 weeks ago by valdemar on Wordpress

@Me

Perhaps.

But his father seems a good, relaxed sort who lets his kids go their own way through reason, inquiry and experience rather than by ramming the bible down their throats.

More importantly there is, of course, no moral equivalence between the position Will has arrived at (by whatever means) and that of a fundie bigot.

3 months, 3 weeks ago by Ivan on Wordpress

If the kid was a fundie and refusing to do something like support a pro-gay rights day because it went against his beliefs, blogs like this would be up in arms about it, claiming that he’s too young to have a strong belief on something like this, and that his parents are influencing him.

I have a hard time believing that this kid has spontaneously generated such a strong belief like this. He’s 10. 10 year olds simply don’t come up with stuff like this by themselves, that’s why they’re called children instead of short-adults.

While it’s nice to see a kid supporting our ideals for once, it doesn’t change the fact that the kid is most likely being influenced or coerced in some way. ... See all content Hide content

3 months, 3 weeks ago by Me on Wordpress

Who said, “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.”

Free Country? Democracy? I don’t think so with Bush fiddling the votes, placing his religious buddies on the supreme court etc. Hell, the censorship is almost as bad as in the UK where we can’t get a few minutes on Thought for the Day.

PS Mick Foley – best not mess with Mick. He looks as if he really could take care of business. ... See all content Hide content

3 months, 3 weeks ago by Broga on Wordpress

Pledges to country and flag always remind me of totalitarian states and I see a lot of pictures of people who are selling out their country and it’s interest wearing lapel-pins. Seems to me that the pledge has lost it’s meaning, if it ever had one.

3 months, 3 weeks ago by H. Davids on Wordpress

The story of Will refusing the recite the pledge is indeed heart-warming and it is also good to see so many others come out in support. His remark to the teacher can surely be forgiven as youthful over-enthusiasm. We should also commend the school for its low-key response.

Oh, that the story ended there. But it doesn’t, of course. Other people have to jump on the bandwaggon and seek publicity from it with their own ill-advised blatherings.

What was the doltish Mick Foley thinking of when he offered threats of violence in support of Will? He thereby misses the point of the exercise (that people should be free to express their opinion without being hassled) and gives opponents something to latch on to.

With friends like that…

And John Brummett, well, he was doing so well until the end where he proposes a pledge of his own thus undoing all the good work of the preceding paragraphs. The point of the protest, as he himself says, is that people should not have to recite pledges of any kind. Then he goes on to suggest that Will ought to recite a pledge of his own devising. I sometimes despair…

I do hope this young man achieves his goal of becoming a lawyer. Perhaps he will become a civil rights advocate and on this showing, would make a good one. I also hope to learns to choose his friends wisely. ... See all content Hide content

3 months, 3 weeks ago by SilverTiger on Wordpress